Unlearned & Unwise Need your help : Ex-Muslims

[AYHAN]

Hi guys,

Im having a debate on another site and i need your help i am not wise like expose, yez, ken, manfred and others. I know it will be long for you to read but i would appreciate it if anyone can help me?
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Start of Debate

-From Another Member defending islam :

Isa and Ibrahim's faith was named Islam and they were called Muslims because they believed in one god ALLAH, it doesn't mean it literally as in they had the same pillars and ways of Islam as Mohammad (pbuh) revealed to us. They didn't pray exactly 5 times a day or even prayed in the same way as Muslims do; or fast for one month. Their religion is called Islam because that is what the true religion means: Submission. Every human is born a Muslim; only after they are nurtured is when they take the name of Christian, Jewish,Hindu etc... Remember Jesus never himself said to follow Christianity, this name was associated with him. They all preached the message of Islam.

- My reply :

How do you know they where called islam? Jus coz MO said it doesn't mean it's true? There is no evidence, and Before islam spread there was only hinduism. Hence all these archaeologist can proof this.
If Adam and Jesus was the muslim - my point is "how come Adam didn't mention this? How come Jesus Didn't mention this?
why did jesus not say - there will be other false prophets but one and his name will be Mohammed or M, or a message from Allah?

Or That islam is the good religion to come?

How can they preach islam when it wasn't mentioned in the bible? All Jesus said was to pray to GOD. God has many names, even Lord Krishna, Lord Ram. Would you say : yes your god is Lord Ram or Allah really is Lord Durga? No!

The reason why muslims think that every human is born a muslim is because you want more people in your religion, so you try to use this tactic. If that doesn't work, Force Convert, Killing, or RAPE..


-Reply from Member :

^ How easily u have think that we force kill and rape to force the people to join Islam and who thinks every human born is a muslim i never think that ? and if it does than he/she can convert like u converted from Islam

- My reply : (i went ahead to prove his claim wrong and why islam is wrong. and condones all the thing that ali sina has said - so please forgive me if i wrote wrong, simply i copied and pasted from this site)

here is some proof that show how bad Islam is (not for you but others) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXF-rJAOHGQ, http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3625 (source from THENATIONAL),


and some more
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Here is what HEDAYA (ref. 11, p. 141) writes:

One can enjoy a wife by force

But not if she be refractory.?If a wife be disobedient or refractory and go abroad without her husband?s consent, she is not entitled to any support from him, until she return and make submission, because the rejection of the matrimonial restraint in this instance originates with her; but when she returns home, she is then subject to it, for which reason she again becomes entitled to her support as before. It is otherwise where a woman, residing in the house of her husband, refuses to admit him to the conjugal embrace, as she is entitled to maintenance, notwithstanding her opposition, because being then in his power, he may, if he please, enjoys her by force.

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur?anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150)

"O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.? (Bukhari 34:432)

Not only wholesale rape, but later, those pitiful creatures were sold to slavery.

??and then we attacked from all sides and reached their watering-place where a battle was fought. Some of the enemies were killed and some were taken prisoners. I saw a group of persons that consisted of women and children [escaping in the distance]. I was afraid lest they should reach the mountain before me, so I shot an arrow between them and the mountain. When they saw the arrow, they stopped. So I brought them, driving them along? I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) met me in the street and said: ?Give me that girl.? (Sahih Muslim 4345)"

The sahih hadith are by themselves so damning of Islam and its self-styled prophet that it has led a significant minority of Muhammadan deceit mongers to pretend to reject them as untrustworthy and claim that they only follow the Koran.

This has always struck me as funny too and I came to the conclusion that true or false, the hadith are equally damning, because one thing cannot be denied, the stories were told/written by people who dearly loved Mohammad. So whereas one can understand exaggerations of magic powers or prodigious feats, why on earth would there be examples of toture, amputation, eye-gouging, rape, etc. unless the Islamic ethic had no trouble with them? The stories were easily religionized. No one said: "Hey this is horrible and slanderous stuff! This casts our wonderful and peaceful religion and our wise and wonderful porphet into a completely false light!"

Even more damning is that the Hadith were studied by many scholars and jurists and some were considered sahih and others weak and unreliable. But the morality of the stories were not part of the criteria that separates them. The violent, murderous, venemous, deranged easily became sahih as well.

Why are so many Muslims violent, murderous, venemous, deranged even till this day? The answer is absurdly simple. It's in their stories. Rape, violence, anger, revenge, bribery, madness were religionized or anyhow mixed

And anyway for every obvious wicked hadith there's another, sweeter one.

And so here we are with millions of people who had a rapist, paedophile, thief, warlord, bandit as a prophet... and the only way to keep them from recognizing the obvious is the most pervasive system of thought control ever devised by humanity.

what does a Muslim call an act of sexual intercourse when the woman has made it clear that she is not consenting? Kinky?

Does a WIFE have the right to say "no" to her husband? In Islam, can a husband insist on sex with his wife, and can he beat his wife into submission

t's written down clear as day in the Koran that Mohammad allowed Muslims to have sex with the women who they captured as prisoners of war.

Women 4:23 Forbidden unto you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your father's sisters, and your mother's sisters, and your brother's daughters and your sister's daughters, and your foster-mothers, and your foster-sisters, and your mothers-in-law, and your step-daughters who are under your protection (born) of your women unto whom ye have gone in - but if ye have not gone in unto them, then it is no sin for you (to marry their daughters) - and the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins. And (it is forbidden unto you) that ye should have two sisters together, except what hath already happened (of that nature) in the past. Lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

There is not a single verse in Quran which is even remotely discouraging forced sex. On the other hand, there are verses in this holy book of Muslims showing green light to rape and other sexual crimes against women.

Quran chapter 4 verse 24: Not many Muslims are happy to discuss of this verse and those who venture often end up in humiliation because of the obvious. Let us see what the verses are about. It is not easy to know what this verse alone suggests therefore relying on the most authentic Tafsirs (interpretations) and Sahih Hadiths associated with it are necessary to get the exact picture.

Quran chapter 4 (Nisa = Women) verse 24:

Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek them from your property, desiring chastity, not fornication. So with those among them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due, but if you agree mutually after the requirement (has been determined), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.


What we see in the beginning of this verse as ?forbidden? refers to sexual intercourse. Quran dictates lawful and forbidden women for a pious Muslim. Here women already married are forbidden for a Muslim except those whom their right hands possess (sex slaves). It is the ordinance of Allah.

It is obvious from this verse a Muslim can have sexual relations with his slave-woman. But to know the context of this verse is important because it sheds light to the nature of allowance from god?s part. If we go through a Sahih Hadith in Sunan Abu Dawud:

Sunnan Abu Dawud, Volume 2, Number 2150:
Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess". That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period." [The Quran verse is 4:24]

Quran is contextual so each and every verse in it has contextual significance. Here in the above hadith from Abu Dawud, we understand why the controversial Quranic verse 4:24 was revealed to Muhammad. It was to encourage his fighters to have sexual contacts with female captives even while their husbands are alive as POWs. The hadith sheds light to a bare fact when we read:

Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers.

Allah-the alleged author of Quran had to intervene in this case because his faithful had been reluctant to have sexual contacts with women while their husbands were alive. Another important matter to consider here is raping war captives in the presence of husbands was not a norm of that time. If that was, there will not have been reluctance from the Muslim holy warriors? part. Muhammad?s alter-ego changes that norm by encouraging people to engage in sexual activities with captive women notwithstanding their husbands are alive. It is not necessary to state Allah is sanctioning ?rape? in its purest sense here as no captives can have any ?say? in case they want to say NO to their masters. So it is rape that is divinely approved in a book that is meant for the entire mankind to the end of times. .................................

As to wives of a son, well, old Mo had an adpoted son called Zayd ibn Harithah, and he was married to Zaynab bint Jahsh, who by all accounts was very beautiful.

Old Mo visited the house of his adopted son one day he he could not properly control his trouser snake when he saw the beautiful woman. He made some thinly veiled advances, and later Zayd and Zaynab talked about this, and they were worried, understandably so, as unless old Mo gets what old Mo wants is was abundantly clear that heads would roll....

So the couple thought it wise to devorce quickly, and made the plan that Zaynab should "marry" old Mo, to keep him happy.

Well the old lecher did marry Zaynab shortly afterwards, and not surprisingly whispers started amongst the followers. As soon as Mo became aware of this for him potentially dangerous problem, would you believe it, Allah rushed to the assistance of old Mo's trouse snake, and reveiled qur'an verse 33:5, making it clear that ot is ok to marry one's daughter in law, from an adopted son. Isn't Allah helpful in getting old Mo out of pickles?

To make sure that Mo's newly acquired sex toy would not pine for her real husband too much, Mo had a simple solution too: he sent him on a raid to a far away place. Mo picked the strongly fortified Byzantine city of Busra, and, strangely and very unusually, this raid was betrayed, as the Muslims were intercepted on the way at Mu'tah, and Zayd was killed. I leave it to you to work out why the raid was betrayed by whom. Needless to say, Mo was "grief striken" and full of praise of his dead adopted son.

So now you know why Muslims proudly proclaim that God allows them to marry their daughter in law...

This is just RAPE (i can provide force conversion or anything you ask dearest badcarbon, Do you want me to carry on? No point in highlighting any of this, all can read and every bit is important.

So from this i got this reply.

-Reply from Another Member :

^ See i posted in my earlier posts that u just point out one Quote from Quran and Hadith and just says that how bad Islam is... A Book cannot be judged by two lines my friend u shud read whole the Quran with translation so u can better understand it And i have full faith in my religion thats its Peaceful Religion No Doubts there

and another one :

The problem is you are so selective in answering questions posted on the board. Its also amazing to see the same sentences you keep saying again and again. You will counter-reply to a question with an answer that is no where close what the question was asking. There is enough violence in the Quran and its very well justified by the book.
Its amazing to see the the consequences of brainwashing. People cannot just seem to think outside the box.

So now i do not know how to combat this situation. All i wanted to do was prove this guy wrong.
I have another 2 threads which i posted replies to : 1 is : Islam is the True Religion and 2. About some islamic proofs as to why is it.

I hope you can guys can help me.

Thanks

Ayhan..
forgive me if i shouldn't have done this. But like i said aren't we all here to prove Islam is WRONG? and EVIL?

[elle]

Ayhan: Sorry this analysis may be a bit long, but Abraham definitely had never ever heard of Judaism or Christianity or Islam because these religions were not even conceived in the time of Abraham. So what has been promulgated were pure myth and fold tales of old carried forward. So here:

"Abraham, Hagar, Ishmael Era

In order to get a proper perspective of the minds of Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael and his descendants we have to examine the era in which they lived and their environment.

(1) Abraham born c.1813 BCE and died 1638 BCE (175 years)
(2) Ishmael born c. 1727 BCE and died 1590 BCE (137 years)
This period spans (1) The Middle Kingdom 2040 BCE- 1640 BCE (11-14 dynasties) with the prominence of King Mentuhotep in the 11th dynasty, through to the (2) Second Intermediary Dynasties 1640 BCE-1532 BCE with the Hyksos Rulers in the 15-16 dynasties and the Theban Kings in the 17th dynasty. [12]
In order to understand the evolution of the 12 tribes of Ishmael we have to views their environment. They all lived in a organised community ruled By Pharaohs.

The Egyptian community had more than 2000 gods but there were some gods like Ra, the sun god, who was worshipped by all Egyptians throughout the country. Ra was the main god, but here is a list of others.

Ra - The Sun God, the one who was there at the beginning.
Amun - the Father of life who later combined with Ra to become Amun-Ra the all important State God.
Osisris, Isis, Seth & Nephthys came from the Creation of the Universe.
Ptah created Heaven and Earth.
Ihsan was the Wife of Ptah.
Seth murdered his Brother Osiris by trapping him in a coffin and then threw him in the Nile.
Nephthys as Sister and Wife to Seth.
Isis was Osiris' Sister and Wife and sometime after his death was able to revive him long enough to conceive Horus.
Osiris was chosen to judge dead mortals who wanted to follow him to Heaven. He sat in judgement as their heart was put in the balance against a feather of the Goddess
Maat, who stood for truth.
Horus a Falcon, avenged his Father Osiris.
Thoth was given the Moon and appointed assistant to the Sun God, Ra.
Isis together with Horus, Anubis and Thoth were able to reassemble the previously dismembered parts of the body of Osiris, and add a phallus (the original having bveen eaten by fish,) wrapped it in bandages and thereby created the first Mummy.
Hathor, the Goddess of Love, Joy and Music first suckled Horus then later became his wife. [13]


Ra,The Sun God

Abraham, and Ishmael and all those who came before Moses (1393 BCE-1272 BCE) lived in a polytheist world and must be regarded as pagan. However, Moses saw a revelation(1314 BCE):

Exodus 3:1-6; Exodus 3:14 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Exodus 3:1-6
Exodus 3
1Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
2And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
Exodus 3:14
14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Then Moses brings down the tablets from Mount Sinai:

"The Ten Commandments, or Decalogue, are a list of religious and moral imperatives that, according to Judeo-Christian tradition, were authored by God and given to Moses on the mountain referred to as "Mount Sinal" (Exodus 19:23) or "Horeb" (Deuteronomy 5:2) in the form of two stone tablets." in the form of two stone tablets. " [14]

There is no logical explanation how Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were up to this point in time, obviously like everyone around them in Egypt, pagan polytheist worshippers under the rule of also polytheist Pharaohs, be suddenly transformed to worship the God who appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai. This revelation to Moses marks the introduction of the monotheist God of Judaism at the burning Bush, 1314 BCE.

However, it is believed that Ishmael, whose mother Hagar was Egyptian, and who married an Egyptian to beget 12 sons, lived an Egyptian cultural and religious way of life, i.e. polytheistic. There was no reason for Ishmael and his descendants to live differently to the people of the region. However, both Jew and Muslims believe that Ishmael was the father of the Arabs of Egypt.


" Biblical Usage Of The Word "Pharaoh"
Some examples of the usage of the word Pharaoh are presented below, and are taken from the stories of Abraham, Joseph and Moses.

PHARAOH DURING THE TIME OF ABRAHAM

According to the book of Genesis, the king who was a contemporary of Abraham was called Pharaoh, and this title is used six times in Genesis 12:10-20.[1] Three examples are illustrated below:
But the Lord inflicted serious diseases on Pharaoh and his house hold because of Abram's wife Sarai. [Gen 12:17]
So Pharaoh summoned Abram. "What have you done to me?" he said/ "Why didn't you tell me she was your wife?" [Gen 12:18]
Then Pharaoh gave orders about Abram to his men, and they sent him on his way, with his wife and everything he had. [Gen 12:20]
PHARAOH DURING THE TIME OF JOSEPH
According to the book of Genesis, the king who ruled Egypt in Joseph's time was also referred as the Pharaoh. The King is addressed as the pharaoh ninety times. [2] The following examples are taken from Genesis 41:
So Pharaoh sent for Joseph, and he was quickly brought from the dungeon. When he had shaved and changed his clothes, he came before Pharaoh. [Gen41:14]
Then Joseph said to Pharaoh, "The dreams of Pharaoh are on and the same. God has revealed to Pharaoh what he is about to do." [Gen41:25]
Joseph was thirty years old when he entered the service of Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from Phaaraoh's presence and travelled throughout Egypt. [Gen41:46]
PHARAOH DURING THE TIME OF MOSES
According to the book of Exodus, the king who ruled Egypt in Moses' time was also referred to as Pharaoh. He is addressed as Pharaoh 128 times.[3] Three examples are illustrated below:
When Pharaoh heard of this, he tried to kill Moses, but Moses fled from Pharaoh and went to live in Midian....[Exodus 2:15]
Then the Lord said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet." [Exodus7:1]
When Pharaoh's horses, and chariots and horsemen went into the sea, the Lord brought the waters of the sea back over them, but the Israelites walked through the sea on dry land. [Exodus15:19]
Thus, for all kings, the contemporaries of Abraham, Joseph and Moses, the Bible uses the term "Pharaoh" to address the kings of Egypt." [15] The above has been submitted to confirm Biblical references of Abraham and the Pharaohs and the religious customs of the people at them point in time.

It is abundantly clear that in Genesis and Exodus the domination of the Pharaohs was apparent and it was a pagan culture. Even in the time of Moses (1393-1272 BCE) the Pharaoh ordered the genocide of all male Jewish babies to control their increase in numbers, and then they attempted to kill Moses when he had survived this order. [Exodus 2:15] The above does not necessarily convey a Lord of Moses, but the Lord of the pagan faith, i.e. Ra.



Hagar

There are several conflicting stories of Hagar but I will refer to the predominant Islamic version of Hagar that hold logical credibility. According to Qisas Al-Anbiya, and Islamic collection of fold lore, Hagar was the daughter of King Maghreb, a descendant of the prophet Salih. However her father was killed in a battle with Pharaoh Dhu I-'arsh and she was captured as a slave. She was then appointed as mistress of the Pharaoh's slaves and allowed privileges. But when the Pharaoh was converted by Abraham to his faith, the Pharaoh presented Hagar as a maid/slave to Sarah as a recompense or reward. Hajar is Arabic and comes from Ha ajruka meaning, "here is your recompense."

However, Hagar gave birth to Ishmael fathered by Abraham and this caused strife between Hagar and Sarah. Sarah wanted Hagar and Ishmael expelled from the household. Abraham, under god's directions, took Hagar and son to Paran in the wilderness of the desert outside of Mecca, and left her under a tree with food and water.

Soon, Hagar ran out of water and in her search climbed two mountains seven times, before the angel Gabriel came to her and caused a spring to appear. This spring is today known as the Zamzam well which is near Mecca.

Today, Hagar's search for water has developed into an Islamic rite during the Hajj and is known as "sa'i. During the two Muslim pilgrimages (the Hajj and Umra), pilgrims are required to walk between the two hills, Safa and Marwa, seven times in a ritual to remember Hagar's desperate search for water for her son Ishmael. The rite symbolises the celebration of motherhood in Islam as well as the determination of women.

Muslims drink from the well of ZamZam as part of their ritual and will take some of this sacred water back with them. [10]

This tradition during the Hajj is a tradition that began some 2500 years years before Mohammad introduced Islam and is a pagan ritual.

The 12 Tribes of Ishmael were [4] :
(1) Nabajoth (2) Mibsam (3) Massa
(4) Jetur (5) Kedar (6) Mishma (7) Hadad (8) Naphish (9) Adbeel
(10) Dumah (11) Tema (12) Kedemah

Descendants of Abraham follow 2 lines of heritage and race and are known as "Banu Ismail" and "Banu Israel." "Banu Ismail" is centered at Mekka, and "Banu Israel" is centered at Bait-ul-Maqdis. The Al-Quraish tribe of which Muhammad and his parents belonged to were descended from the "Banu Ismail's heritage. Mohammad was born of the Quraish tribe in April, 570 AD. [5]

In Islamic tradition Ishmaelites are known as Banu Ismail.
The other heritage and race was "Banu Israel" is attributed to Abraham's legitimate son Isaac.

Ishmael is considered as the ancestor of the Arab people by both Jews and Muslims. This implies the genetic ancestry Arabs had with Ishmael but unconnected with any religious affiliations.

TIME SCALE:

Abraham born c.1813 BCE and died 1638 BCE (I75 Years)
Sarah born c. 1803
Ishmael was born 1727 BCE- died 1590 BCE (137 years)
Ishmael was born when Abraham was 86 years of age, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael
Isaac was born 1713 BCE and died 1533 BCE
Isaac was born when Abraham was 100 years old (Gen 21:5) and Sarah was 90 years of age (Gen 17:17)
Moses born 1393 BCE and died 1272 BCE (180 years)
Moses sees burning Bush 1314 BCE
Mohammad born 570 CE died 630 CE(60 years). Began his preaching Islam in 610 CE (when 40 years old)

The fundamental doctrines of Judaism was transmitted to Moses from the visions he received with the burning bush in 1314 BC, marking the beginnings of Judaism and its doctrines. It must be concluded that prior to 1314 BC the tribal people of this region were pagans practising either paganism, polytheism, or atheism. Judaism did not exist. Neither was Christianity nor Islam, or monotheism was heard of. However, there was evidence that early pagan worship existed and the existence of the Ka'aba in Mecca was proof that Pagan worship was present and well supported.

Islamic traditions believe that Abraham and Ishmael built the foundations of the Kaaba. (They were raising the foundations of the House," Qur'an 2:l27) Islamic traditions believe that the Ka'aba was first built by Adam, and that Abraham and Ishmael rebuilt the new Ka'aba on the old foundations. [6]

Accepting the above, this means that Abraham and Ishmael were building the polytheist pagan alter of worship upon which sat all the 120 gods or more that were venerated by those worshipers. This would have related to an earlier form of the Quarish worship of "Hubal," known as "Al-ilah, and worshipped alongside Al-illah would be his three daughters, al-Lat, al-Uzza, and al-Manat.

In order to appease and to try to win over the Quraish elders to Islam, Mohammad paid obeisance to all those 4 gods (Koran 53:19), but later retracted when Allah showed him the error of his ways. He abrogated those verses and declared that Satan had deceived him into submission. the abrogated verses included Sura's 13:39, 16:101, Vol 2:106. While 41:37 disapproves of the sun and moon worship. [7]

By this act of appeasement to the Quraish elders, Mohammad had compromised his faith and Allah, for it is said in the Koran that there is but only one Allah:

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[112.1] Say: He, Allah, is One.
[112.2] Allah is He on Whom all depend.
[112.3] He begets not, nor is He begotten.
{Implying he had no son (Jesus), nor is he a son(Jesus) of Allah}
[112.4] And none is like Him.
{He is the ONLY Allah (supreme)}


Picture of the Kaaba taken in 1880. Islamic traditions hold that the Kaaba was rebuilt by Abraham and Ishmael. Maybe, but only with polytheist idols of Allah the god Ra, the sun god. No one have ever heard of Islam before the time of the Prophet Muhammad.

[AYHAN]

Hi Elle,


Ok i understand, but what bout this? I think? lol... im dumb i know ^^

"I guess that was about adam being the 1st muslim and there was no islam? Isa and Ibrahim's faith was named Islam and they were called Muslims because they believed in one god ALLAH, it doesn't mean it literally as in they had the same pillars and ways of Islam as Mohammad (pbuh) revealed to us. Their religion is called Islam because that is what the true religion means: Submission."

--I think that one GOD ALLAH thing is my reply to 120 Gods, and also that before mohammed came no-one knew of islam? Correct?



And what bout this???
-

Reply from Another Member :

^ See i posted in my earlier posts that u just point out one Quote from Quran and Hadith and just says that how bad Islam is... A Book cannot be judged by two lines my friend u shud read whole the Quran with translation so u can better understand it And i have full faith in my religion thats its Peaceful Religion No Doubts there

and another one :

The problem is you are so selective in answering questions posted on the board. Its also amazing to see the same sentences you keep saying again and again. You will counter-reply to a question with an answer that is no where close what the question was asking. There is enough violence in the Quran and its very well justified by the book.
Its amazing to see the the consequences of brainwashing. People cannot just seem to think outside the box.

So now i do not know how to combat this situation. All i wanted to do was prove this guy wrong.
I have another 2 threads which i posted replies to : 1 is : Islam is the True Religion and 2. About some islamic proofs as to why is it.

I hope you can guys can help me.

Thanks

Ayhan..

[elle]

No, before Moses came, the concept of one god was not conceived. Monotheism began with Judaism.

[AYHAN]

Ok Thanks Understand now..

And what bout this???

u just point out one Quote from Quran and Hadith and just says that how bad Islam is... A Book cannot be judged by two lines my friend u shud read whole the Quran with translation so u can better understand it And i have full faith in my religion thats its Peaceful Religion No Doubts there

Thanks Elle Again...

[sum]

Hello AYHAN

This is from your opening post -
Here is what HEDAYA (ref. 11, p. 141) writes:

One can enjoy a wife by force

But not if she be refractory.?If a wife be disobedient or refractory and go abroad without her husband?s consent, she is not entitled to any support from him, until she return and make submission, because the rejection of the matrimonial restraint in this instance originates with her; but when she returns home, she is then subject to it, for which reason she again becomes entitled to her support as before. It is otherwise where a woman, residing in the house of her husband, refuses to admit him to the conjugal embrace, as she is entitled to maintenance, notwithstanding her opposition, because being then in his power, he may, if he please, enjoys her by force.

Where did you get this from? Is it from one of my posts because I have been the only one presenting this?

I note that not a single muslim responded to my posting of the Hedaya ruling and that no muslim appears to comment on your posting of it. I suggest that you persevere with this quote and try to get the muslims to comment as this is current Islam. It must be an embarrassment for the muslims and so they try to ignore it.

sum

[manfred]

Ok Thanks Understand now..

And what bout this???

u just point out one Quote from Quran and Hadith and just says that how bad Islam is... A Book cannot be judged by two lines my friend u shud read whole the Quran with translation so u can better understand it And i have full faith in my religion thats its Peaceful Religion No Doubts there

Thanks Elle Again...

Ask you friend if HE has read the quran. If he says yes then ask if he noticed what the quran says about Jews and Non-Muslims, and about those who in good conscience decide that they must leave Islam. (for a start)

Mohammed says he "has been made victorious in torror". The quran says "kill the unbelievers where ever you find them". That is was strict Muslims do. Kill unbelievers. That is why the Lokerbie bomber got a hero's welcome. By the way did you know that the Lybian government helped to set up that attack on the plane by supplying the bombers with fake passports and money? It's in the judge's summary for the court case, so the evidence was acually produced in court.

Don't allow the old defense of "you need to look at the context". At best, you can be expected to look at at a few verses before and after a quote from the quran. The quran is in fact very badly written and cannot even properly tell a story. (if you want me to show you, tell me). Historical context is also a red herring, if he mentions it: the quran is supposed to be written litterally by God Himself, for all time. So historical context should not come into it. Also "you need to learn Arabic" is nonsense. Most Muslims don't know Arabic. The quran claims to be plain and clear, so don't let him start with "deeper meanings" either. If he does, ask him to prove them to you.

Having said that, perhaps he can explain why the book written by God for all generations and all time contains a whole surah with nothing else but vicious curses for Mohammed's uncle?

Ask your friend to explain the term "taqiyah". It is the duty of all Muslims to lie to unbelievers to protect the interests of Islam. He will lie about that, I am pretty certain.Then ask him how you can possibly expect to believe a word he says.

[elle]

Ayhan, reading the Koran like in a Madrassa is boring. I have studied the Koran by looking up topics like, Peace, Deception, tolerance, Only Ilah, morality, lust, Jews, Christians, Racism, Women, Jihad, War, Fighting, and so on. To help you and others to do this, I provide this link that you should save to your 'Bookmark"

http://www.searchtruth.com/quran_topics_index.php

Also do some research yourself or write articles. Here is an article on the Ambiguities in Islam:

http://knol.google.com/k/mbp-lee/qurani ... udotn1a/8#

or the Origins of the Abrahamic faiths and the myths that has been fostered:

http://knol.google.com/k/mbp-lee/islami ... dotn1a/20#

or Understand Islam:

http://knol.google.com/k/mbp-lee/unders ... udotn1a/4#

By the time you have digested the links above, you should be able to answer most questions about Islam.

[Marie]

Hi guys,

Im having a debate on another site and i need your help i am not wise like expose, yez, ken, manfred and others. I know it will be long for you to read but i would appreciate it if anyone can help me?
-----------------------------------------------------
Start of Debate

-From Another Member defending islam :

Isa and Ibrahim's faith was named Islam and they were called Muslims because they believed in one god ALLAH, it doesn't mean it literally as in they had the same pillars and ways of Islam as Mohammad (pbuh) revealed to us. They didn't pray exactly 5 times a day or even prayed in the same way as Muslims do; or fast for one month. Their religion is called Islam because that is what the true religion means: Submission. Every human is born a Muslim; only after they are nurtured is when they take the name of Christian, Jewish,Hindu etc... Remember Jesus never himself said to follow Christianity, this name was associated with him. They all preached the message of Islam.

Jesus and Abraham were Jews not Muslims. There is nothing to support this person's claim. Tell this person to read the Bible instead of listening to what some Muslim cleric says about what Jesus and Abraham followed.

[Marie]

Hi Elle,


Ok i understand, but what bout this? I think? lol... im dumb i know ^^

"I guess that was about adam being the 1st muslim and there was no islam? Isa and Ibrahim's faith was named Islam and they were called Muslims because they believed in one god ALLAH, it doesn't mean it literally as in they had the same pillars and ways of Islam as Mohammad (pbuh) revealed to us. Their religion is called Islam because that is what the true religion means: Submission."

--I think that one GOD ALLAH thing is my reply to 120 Gods, and also that before mohammed came no-one knew of islam? Correct?



And what bout this???
-

Reply from Another Member :

^ See i posted in my earlier posts that u just point out one Quote from Quran and Hadith and just says that how bad Islam is... A Book cannot be judged by two lines my friend u shud read whole the Quran with translation so u can better understand it And i have full faith in my religion thats its Peaceful Religion No Doubts there

and another one :

The problem is you are so selective in answering questions posted on the board. Its also amazing to see the same sentences you keep saying again and again. You will counter-reply to a question with an answer that is no where close what the question was asking. There is enough violence in the Quran and its very well justified by the book.
Its amazing to see the the consequences of brainwashing. People cannot just seem to think outside the box.

So now i do not know how to combat this situation. All i wanted to do was prove this guy wrong.
I have another 2 threads which i posted replies to : 1 is : Islam is the True Religion and 2. About some islamic proofs as to why is it.

I hope you can guys can help me.

Thanks

Ayhan..

Adam was not the first Muslim he was the first human and he belonged to no system of religion.

In Christianity Jesus did not submit to God the way the Muslims did. He said to worship God and have faith. He also breached salvation which was the main thing of his ministry.

In regards to Islam it should be judged by it's message and what it's followers have done because of Islam.

[elle]

Do not confuse tribes and religions.

Abraham was a Semite, and so was Ishmael, and as Muhammad claims those were their ancestors they were all Semites. But Abraham was not a Judaist or a Christian or a Muslim, he was a Semite and he in every probability a pagan who worshipped the gods of the Pharaohs, because that was the only religion practised at that time. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam were not even conceived during the lifetime of Abraham.

"A Semite is someone descended from Sem or Shem, the eldest son of Noah. (See the article from the 1912 Edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia, presented below.)

A HEBREW is someone descended from Heber (or, "Eber"), one of the great-grandsons of Shem. So all Hebrews are Semites, but not all Semites are Hebrews. (Both Sunnite Arabs and Jews are Semites, and Hebrews, as well as Jews.)

Six generations after Heber, Abraham was born to his line, so Abraham was both a Hebrew and a Semite, born of the line of Heber and Shem.

Ishmael was born of Abraham, and (Sunnite) Arabs (and specifically Muslims) consider themselves to be descendants of him, so they are both Semitic and Hebrews. Isaac was born of Abraham, then Jacob of Isaac. Jacob's name was changed to "Israel," and he fathered 12 sons. His sons and their descendants are called Israelites, and they would therefore be both Semitic and Hebrew. However, this would not make either Abraham or Isaac "Israelites." Those who poorly use the words "Jew" and Israelite, call Abraham a Jew, even though Abraham was not even an Israelite, and where the word "Jew" is not used in the Bible until 1,000 years AFTER Abraham.

One of Jacob-Israel's children was Judah (Hebrew - Yehudah). His descendants were called Yehudim ("Judahites"). In Greek this reads Ioudaioi ("Judeans"). The confusing thing here is that almost all Bible translations employ the word "Jew," which is a modern, shortened form of the word "Judahite." Every time you come to the word "Jew" in the Old Scriptures, you should read "Judahite;" and every time you come to the word "Jew" in the New Scriptures, you should read it as "Judean."

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/semites.htm

[AYHAN]

yes i understand this bit before islam and how these guys where not..

but what about =="" A Book cannot be judged by two lines my friend u shud read whole the Quran with translation so u can better understand it And i have full faith in my religion thats its Peaceful Religion No Doubts there"

from this guy trying to defend it.1

[AYHAN]

I got a reply from this :

(In Christianity Jesus did not submit to God the way the Muslims did. He said to worship God and have faith. He also breached salvation which was the main thing of his ministry.)


And this is the answer
u have a confused mind..

anyone care to help?
Thanks

[expozIslam]

I got a reply from this :

(In Christianity Jesus did not submit to God the way the Muslims did. He said to worship God and have faith. He also breached salvation which was the main thing of his ministry.)


And this is the answer
u have a confused mind..

anyone care to help?
Thanks

What is the confusion. Jesus did not need the people to die for him and therefore he did not seek people to submit to anybody but to love god.
Mohammad wanted people to fight and die for him and that is why he had to force people to submit to allah(his alter ego presented as god to muslims). He was acting like a typical commander of armed forces who seeks complete surrender to his orders and this is no different. That is why Islamic god is so hateful and nasty to those who leave and very kind to those who submit without question.
A commander needs warriors who can even kill themselves without question when ordered to do so and Mo used this very well. He made killing a religous passion.

[Marie]

I got a reply from this :

(In Christianity Jesus did not submit to God the way the Muslims did. He said to worship God and have faith. He also breached salvation which was the main thing of his ministry.)


And this is the answer
u have a confused mind..

anyone care to help?
Thanks

What I meant was Jesus did not preach submit your freewill to God, he talked humility and no I don't have a confused mind. I attempting to distinguish what Muslims believe about submission from what Christians believe. Don't like my answer? Bite me.

[AYHAN]

hey,
thanks both of you, it is not me, just a answer i got from a muslim,. its a social site and there are hindus on there 2, like this, but i am trying to show those muslims because they started a thread saying islam is the true religion and of course being a member of FFI, i cannot just sit down, so i got up and started showing all those people these extracts. and some answers im getting back i do not understand, so i have to ask you guys! sorry.

One of the hindus said im starting a anti-islamic propaganda haha

thanks

Any more question im sure i will pass on.
Thanks